Let's talk about sex . . . and the '60s revolution

David Allyn was a lecturer in the history department from 1996 to 1999. His book, "Make Love Not War: The Sexual Revolution, an Unfettered History," was released this month. He recently spoke with 'Prince' senior writer Jennifer Maloney.

Prince: What is your book about?

Allyn: The book is about the transformation of sexual attitudes in the 1960s and early '70s, what was known at the time as the sexual revolution, and it began as my doctoral dissertation at Harvard. The book is a chronicle of the period, a chronicle of the changes in the culture. The theme of the book is that the sexual revolution was a profoundly American revolution. That it was — I'm going to quote you from the book: "It was filled with the contradiction of American life. It was spiritual yet secular, idealistic yet commercial, driven by science yet colored by a romantic view of nature." The book examines as well how difficult it is to sustain a consistent political point of view regarding sex. . . . Sex is far too messy and complex to conform to tidy political postulates.

P: You interviewed such big names as Hugh Hefner, Larry Flynt and Gloria Steinem. What was that like?

A: It was a lot of fun. I got to go out to the Playboy mansion in L.A., and I actually interviewed Gloria Steinem at Princeton when she came to speak. It was very interesting to see how some people were still very much of their time. They were still of the time of the sexual revolution. . . . . [Penthouse founder Bob] Guccione still wears the famous key necklace that symbolizes the key to the penthouse that was his iconic symbol in the '70s. He still wears that with an open-necked shirt. I especially enjoyed meeting with people, though, who were less famous. For instance, I went out to Indiana and met with a couple who were swingers in the '70s, that is they had an open marriage. I met with them and two of the couples they used to have sex with. I very much enjoyed meeting Helen Gurley Brown, who wrote "Sex and the Single Girl," which was published in 1962 and then she became editor of Cosmopolitan Magazine, and she was very influential.

P: What was it like to interview them?

A: It was fascinating. . . . They still remembered very fondly the days when they all used to swap partners with one another. But I was also shocked by how they could be so liberal in some areas and so conservative in others. When I asked one of the men who used to be a swinger how he would feel if his son were gay, he said he would kick his son out of the house.

P: What has been the general reaction to your book?

A: It's been very interesting. I was criticized by The Washington Post for being too liberal, but US magazine liked it because they thought it was fairly conservative.

P: Kirkus Reviews commented on your detailed look at medical issues, saying, "Allyn displays no such squeamishness in detailing accounts of liberated sex. Readers should have a strong stomach or a barf bag."

A: I thought that was really adolescent. I think the book does bring up people's strong reactions, and I think that if people have a strong reaction to the '60s, they're going to have a strong reaction to the book. So that reviewer was very clearly against the '60s.

P: What do you see as the most pressing sexual issues in the year 2000?

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A: Gay marriage is certainly a pressing issue. Whether you think that is sexual or not is another question. I think that the sexualization of pop culture is pretty important. It's on shows like wrestling where messages of violent sexuality and of sexual exploitation are really being sold to kids. I think that's a far more serious issue than, say, the question of pornography.

P: What did you think about the recent sex scandal in the White House?

A: I talk about it in the book. Clinton fired his surgeon general, Joycelyn Elders, because she suggested that children be taught about masturbation in school as a way to deal with the AIDS crisis. That masturbation is of course the safest form of sex. So he fired her, and then he proposed a 'don't-ask-don't-tell' policy in the military, which led to an increase in the number of persecutions of gay men and women in the military. And he supported the funding for abstinence education in schools. So I think that Clinton is rather hypocritical on sexual matters.

P: How did you first learn about sex?

A: I used to go to my aunt and uncle's apartment in New York and I would read the "Joy of Sex" at night.

P: Did they know about this?

A: I think they did because I used to fall asleep with the book open on my bed and in the morning it would be back on the shelf. And I also learned about sex from erotic magazines. I always felt like the kid who didn't really know what was going on. One time I remember being on the school bus and Jonathan Glickman asked me if I knew what rubbers were. I said, "Sure, they're the kind of boots you put over your shoes when it's raining." And he and everyone else had a good laugh. . . . So I think that's part of why I wanted to write this book. I wanted to make up for my lack of knowledge. I was the preppy kid. I always thought hippies seemed kind of dirty.

P: What do you think of hippies now?

A: Now I'm much more sympathetic to what they were doing and I really respect their idealism. They weren't always idealistic. Sometimes they just wanted to do drugs and get laid. But often, they were extraordinarily idealistic and they were very courageous and I respect that. I'm inspired by that.

P:What inspired you to write the book?

A: I was very interested in the ideas of Herbert Marcuse and Wilhelm Reich, two Utopian sexual thinkers who were very influential in the 1960s — and I just wanted to know what happened.