The Borough Police has released the names of three gang-affiliated men charged with aggravated assault in connection with an altercation at the Wilson College BlackBox on Friday, April 18.
Princeton residents Vonzell Kelley, 20, and John Hayes, 20, as well ...(back to the article)
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I’m currently a sworn (out of state) police officer with a few experienced-filled years in a vest. I have been following this story closely and hope my unique perspective can be a positive contribution to the dialogue. My job requires the presence of lethal force response. I’ve been trained extensively how and when it is appropriate and understand, first hand, the fear that a firearm invokes in people. This concept is at the core of society’s commitment to service through a police officer. Simply put: With AUTHORITY comes POWER and a gun is a powerful symbol for both. Reluctance to give (up) power seems to be inherently human, and to do so requires tremendous trust and faith in the recipient.... I’d continue, but I’m not even sure if this post is still active.
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re: the Yalie's suggestion that we use tasers: First, tasers are illegal in Jersey, so it's not an option. Second, Yale's campus police has guns already. Third, there have been issues on campuses with the hazy placement of tasers on the use of force continuum -- hence "don't taze me bro". As a student, I'm not sure I like the idea of tasers on campus. I think that's an entirely different argument than arming police officers with guns, which I emphatically support.
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Maybe your safety officers could be armed with tasers like the New Haven police. Non-deadly. http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/24637
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Look, if street gangs are starting to show up on campus, something has to br done about it. Presumably arming safety officers would send them a message. A limp response will send the wrong message.
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In response to Come On Guys's comments: "Proctors" and "sworn police officers" at Princeton are the same thing. The positions of Princeton University patrolmen, historically called proctors, have been staffed by sworn police officers for decades. These officers changed from wearing suits to police uniforms circa 2004-2005, but their powers have remained the same. The thought of a police officer using a weapon to break up a college party is absurd. These officers are currently supplied with batons and pepper spray, have they ever used either to break up a party? No! So why would they start pulling guns out to stop parties? You will not have to worry about University police using tasers, as they are illegal in New Jersey. The issue is not breaking up student parties with guns, it is not even about changing the interaction with students, it is about keeping the sworn police officers safe in the same manner that other police officers are.
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Do you think I haven't met public safety officers, both proctors and NJ officers? Overall I've never had a problem with Public Safety and they've never been less then fair to me. Saying that, I think giving them guns will not solve any of our problems other than ensuring that many a Princeton student will again feel like nothing can happen here. Also, it is unfortunate and sad that there was a fight at Blackbox. Steps should be taken to ensure the safety of Blackbox in the future, but because this is Princeton, this event is getting blown extraordinarily out of proportion. From what I have read (I was not there), the fight started and stopped in a reasonable amount of time and the assailants were apprehended. Looks like the response to the incident by Safeguards, PSafety and the Borough was pretty good.
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I understand your concern but I think that if you trust your mothering skills to have taught your daughter to have enough sense to carry herself in a socially conscious manner this will never be here. Also if you were interested, based on the past history of Blackbox, the percentage of times something like this has happened versus the amount of parties thrown = 1%. Someone needs to take that into consideration...
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Yea putting up massive black metal fences that can lock students IN or OUT if they don't have their prox which can't even get them into a building across the courtyard in which they live...sounds like fun in suburban New Jersey... get over yourself this was ONE incident and NO ONE WAS SEVERELY HURT Princeton students simply need to stop thinking their invincible. They may think that the world bows down to us but everyone else lives in the real world.
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Sir/Madam I am really shocked and disappointed at your statement. I surely hope that a parent of a soon-to-be college student is still not frequenting clubs but since the last time that you were probably there rules have changed and NON POLICE OFFICERS (aka bouncers) are not allowed to carry weapons (including mace and batons) and if anyone tells you they have seen that that was an example of bouncers taking advice from reckless people like you and using unnecesssary force. Since when is MORE WEAPONS the answer? I really hope you understand the environment you're trying to put your child into. One thing that all these 2nd amendment quoting vigilantes aren't telling you is that this is the FIRST time something like this happened in history at Princeton and I highly doubt it will ever happen again. Also what they are not telling you is that the administration's actual JOB is to handle things like this and the security plans are already being taken care of. Furthermore, I would suggest you take the role of an ADULT and not read the Princeton Paparazzi.
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Princeton U students need to start facing the fact that they need to be street smart; often are delusional about the real world; and learn to participate in their own safety by calling for help from the police they too-often ridicule.
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Perhaps they do it because policing a suburban, predominately upper-middle class white university is safer than busting up crackhouses in Trenton. I don't think Public Safety is having any problems recruiting, but perhaps I'm wrong...
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In my experience with public safety (I am PU '07 and have had many a room or frat party busted), the sworn NJ officers have been much more likely to show force unnecessarily (think typical a-hole cop). University proctors are much more relaxed and know how to handle the types of everyday violations that occur on a college campus. Sworn officers are the ones who bully freshman caught at parties and bust people throwing up in McCosh. MIT has a similar situation to princeton, where there are both proctors and sworn officers. The sworn officers are allowed to carry guns, but from my experience (MIT GS), there is a de facto rule that they are not to unholster their weapons unless their life is clearly in danger. That means no busting room parties, no hassling well-meaning students, no typical Borough PD/ Jersey cop tactics. The result is a very efficient and professional safety force, and one of the safest campuses in the country (in spite of being in a major metropolitan area). Knowing what PU public safety's officers are like, I just don't believe they would be able to show that kind of restraint or professionalism, armed or unarmed. College students (particularly PU students) can be indignant, stubborn, jerks who question authority (especially when drunk). Combine that with a short-tempered, armed officer and it's a recipe for disaster. I'd hate to see a tragedy like the UCLA taser incident happen at PU. I mean, how many PSafety officers have posted on here encouraging us to join...A FACEBOOK GROUP!!! Come on guys. Fear mongering is not the way to make a case.
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If Yale can keep interlopers out of campus buildings and keep crime confined to non-student areas, why can't Princeton do it, too? For mant prospective freshmen, this was an unfortunate highlight to their visit.
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I'm just disappointed that this incident took the Borough police away from their all-important work of hassling undergrads.
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I am a parent of a prefrosh. I see from the website that Wilson Blackbox advertises itself as a "nightclub." If Blackbox and the university want to run a nightclub on campus they ought to wake up and realzie that nightclubs do need bouncers and armed security. Anything less than that is just plain naivete. The administration needs to send a letter of explanation to prefrosh parents.
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The University needs to pop its orange bubble and respond to this incident with constructive plans to prevent anymore such incidents. This could have been my daughter. Please send updates to parents.
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How will giving a police officer a gun create a problem? Maybe if you took the time to go to their office, meet a police officer or two, you would see who they are. These officers have all completed the basic course for police officers set forth by the Attorney General of New Jersey. They can work anywhere they desire. Why they continue to serve a community that short changes their training and experience is beyond me.
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I think that the issue of arming Public Safety was getting attention before this incident. Now, less than a week later, a gang related incident (isolated is laughable) occurs on campus. We must ponder "what if" and accept that this campus, while relatively safe, is no exception to violence. Public Safety will not go around flailing their guns in our faces, nor will they draw down on us if we lock ourselves out of our rooms. They will do what every other police officer does. SERVE AND PROTECT. We all know they can serve. I think in the present time, they need to be able to protect. If not, why even have a Public Safety department at all?
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Is anyone else finding it a little amusing that more than one person who has righteously called for Princeton to recognize P-Safety's right to carry a weapon while on duty referred to a FACEBOOK group that we should all join. As though the administration has nothing better to do that compulsively check differing groups to see how big they are. I can just see Shirley Tilghman in her office, demanding action to anyone who will isten, because the 500th person joined the group.
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Hey, Let's take away all guns from all cops. How dare you belittle a police officer who has chosen to protect us all.
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Why would guns in the hands of public safety be your first response to this situation. The solution advised in the article is the logical first step. I'm all for protecting our public safety officers, but giving them firearms will create more problems than they help.
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{In September 2006, Kelley was one of three black suspects arrested in the beating and robbery of three Hispanic men, the Trenton Times reported. Borough Police had originally asked the Mercer County Prosecutor's Office to prosecute the attacks as "bias crimes" because they believed race to be a factor in the crimes, but the New Jersey Attorney General’s Office denied this request. Kelley and two other individuals first robbed and the proceeded to beat three middle-aged Hispanic men, one of whom was riding a bicycle home from work when the assailants knocked him off, went through his pockets for valuables and then kicked him repeatedly as he lay on the ground, the Trenton Times reported.} If Kelly had been tried in Jenna, Louisiana, for robbery, aggravated assault with a deadly tennis shoe weapon, and attempted murder for this past crime, he would still be in jail with 20 more years to serve. ¶ If the Princeton Public Safety Department has to deal with gang members, they need for their own safety to at least have a trunk full of guns and ammunition. You don't have to show your deadly force on your person to be a deadly force. There are liability issues involved in denying Public Safety Department officers the right to protect themselves in an emergency situation.
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Dammit, I came here thinking P is a safe place. Are you telling me the campus police officers don't carry guns?
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Wake up, it's not about cracking down on students! Underage drinking, parties, noise complaints will always be part of the college scene, and the officers of Public Safety know this and will continue to use discretion when handling these matters. Arming the police officers at Public Safety will not result in a guns-drawn crackdown on unauthorized parties. The biggest threat to police officers on campus are those from outside the University community. Transients and drug users at West Windsor Fields, gang members attending campus parties, and motorists passing through. Arming police officers will protect the officers in these and similar situations. Many times the University community is unaware of the dangers that officers face when protecting Princeton's huge campus. This is not about making campus a police state, it is about protecting those who protect the community.
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What if----what if irresponsible people were illegally making alcohol available to minors in off-campus housing? Surely we would want the police to enter those buildings and arrest those responsible! Oh, wait...
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Its not so much about the chance of crime. It's about having the tools and never needing them. Not needing them and not having them. Police need to protect themselves before they can protect others. Let's not make an emotion based decision here, but let's encourage an open dialogue on this issue. An open forum may be a good start.
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What if faculty, staff, and students were allowed to carry their legally-owned firearms to defend themselves? These are interesting questions.
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'What if' the gang members had ak-47s...? Even an armed public safety would have been far outgunned. Or for that matter, what if the gang members had suitcase nukes??? These types of arguments have been used for years to scare people into making a choice but are not valid per se. If we want to bring guns onto Princeton's campus then we need some sort of empirical data that gun-related crimes have a high probability of occurring, and that an armed police force will be better able to stop said crimes.
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Something to note about local gang activity. These non-nationally affiliated Blood Members are deadly. To prove their worth and status within their community, they will often act out more violently than true members of the Blood nation. Mr. Scharf never said these men were armed, but asked the question... "what if?" To not properly equip Public Safety is wreckless at best. I encourage anyone to look at national stats on what percentage of gang members (affiliated or not) carry firearms. The orange bubble has a train station and a bus terminal which brings in people from all over. This campus is open to the public and open to the prospect of violence. I understand Cass Cliat is being told what to say, but who she represents are making the wrong call here. These multiple "isolated" incidents all could have gone a lot worse. If we have a police force on campus, let them do what they were trained to do....BE COPS! It is time to arm Public Safety now and recognize them as University Police. I also find it disturbing that every article downgrades Public Safety's role here. They apprehended two gang members and the information they gave helped the Borough apprehend the other. It seems like the University won't properly credit the University Police for an outstanding job. I applaud the Borough Police for their role, but credit should be given where it is due. Public Safety has proved their worth and value time and time again. They have the difficult task of not only enforcing University regulations, but state and local laws. It is up to us as a community to speak up and demand better protection. FACEBOOK---PRINCETONIANS FOR A SAFER CAMPUS.
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Excellent point Matt. Ac your missing the point. Scharf did not say they had weapons. The question is "What if" The consequesnces could be much worse. In this case the thre students may not simply have been hurt, but much worse. Then the Police Officers (University) that apprehended them. Do you put such little value on the lives of you fellow students? or is it only the Police Officers you put so little value in? A gun would only be a tool used if needed, but we should wait until such a tradegy takes place then say maybe we should have armed them.
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You're right, Ac, gang members never carry weapons, right? Especially not Bloods or Mara Salvatrucha, right??? And this is just an isolated incident, right? That's what Comforting Cass Cliatt said. I believe everything she says. It's just an isolated incident. And the time MS-13 was breaking into buildings and dorms to steal things was just an isolated incident. When the student was assaulted at night for no reason by Dillon two years ago, it was just an isolated incident. When gang members were arrested on campus with weapons on them on University Place, it was just an isolated incident. Thank goodness all these gang related crimes are just isolated incidents. Thank goodness Princeton doesn't have a gang "problem." Though, hmmm, I wonder, how many "isolated incidents" does it take before something becomes a "problem?" Wake up Princeton. Facebook: Princetonians for a Safer Campus.
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I hope that Rachael Ferguson's article section about nationally affiliated gangs does not give anyone a false sense of security about the "Bloods" who show up around campus. Most of the Bloods in Trenton are not nationally affiliated either. Gangs pop up in neighborhoods and proclaim that they are Blood, and use violence regardless of their affiliation. More than any other gang, Bloods are decentralized, and are more loyal to their set than the overall Blood nation. To imply that the individuals showing up on campus are any less violent than nationally affiliated Bloods is a dangerous misconception. As for Ac's comment, not every gang member has a gun, but with one gang member around campus there certainly will be more. All it takes is one gang member with a weapon to pop the Orange Bubble. Please be safe and keep alert.
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And just where, oh fear-mongering Will, does it mention anywhere that any of the three guys had weapons? I see nothing to suggest that.
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And our P. Safety officers had to chase down this Kelley character and his gang buddies on foot completely unarmed. When is the University going to listen to sense and give our campus police the equipment they need to do their job properly? We should all be having nightmares as to what would have happened if Vonzell had pulled a gun.
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