On Sunday afternoons, walking by Princeton's neo-Gothic chapel, I hear church bells ringing. Often I am struck by their beauty. This week, though, I've been thinking and reading more about their history and meaning because at Harvard, a different call ...(back to the article)
The opinions expressed here are those of the individual commenters and do not necessarily represent the views of The Daily Princetonian Publishing Company, Inc. We do not take responsibility for the opinions, facts, or claims presented by individual commenters, and reserve the right to moderate or delete inappropriate comments.
Though they certainly did not like the Church, it is worth noting that the Soviets also needed the metal.
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
I'll just add that church bells can be a disturbance also. I lived in Holder sophmore year and every Sunday morning I woke up earlier than I wanted to since I was right next to the church. Of course, they have a right to do that, I suppose. But it was pretty irritating. At least the chapel is pretty far away from dorms.
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
@@Atheist: Well, I think the two are disanalogous. I suppose it's a matter of subjective opinion to a certain extent whether a particular action is a disturbance or not. But when two women or two men kiss that is not a message to heterosexual students that they are wrong for wanting to kiss people of the opposite sex. In the context of these religious symbols, certainly the adhan and my proposed atheist version would be a declaration to persons of other belief systems that they are wrong for doing what they do religiously. They are statements of religious self-righteousness, and they are loud. A more analogous situation would be if LGBT students wanted to shout over loudspeaker: "heterosexual students, you don't know what you're missing. sex with the same sex is so much more pleasurable and fulfilling, etc." But I know of no LGBT students who actually think that they should or would want to do that. I think "stupid" was a pretty unnecessary term to apply to my argument. But perhaps I didn't explain it adequately. I hope that helps.
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
Atheist, I am going to take your comment and simply substitute in analogous words. The context? Me as a religious woman commenting on two lesbian girls kissing, which is something I have seen often on this campus and in general. The stupidity of your rationale is clear: Laura, I think that was a very well-reasoned piece. But I have to say I have a problem with any social group being able to display a signal of their beliefs. Princeton is a neutral institution that has support groups for gay persons through the LGBT. People are entitled to a certain amount of accommodation for their sexual beliefs, but not when it infringes on others in an excessive way. As an religious woman, I don't think I should have to walk around campus seeing this action, (I call it an action because it has no meaning or purpose for me, personally). What do you think now?
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
Perhaps, P'05, you should take your own advice concerning learning about other religions, if your statement "Islam is not exclusive like Christianity" is any indication of your understanding of either faith.
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
The bells mark time. Is this Christian proselytizing? Princeton was founded as a Presbyterian school and is now non-sectarian.
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
Laura, I think that was a very well-reasoned piece. But I have to say I have a problem with any religion being able to blare a signal of their beliefs from a loudspeaker or a belltower. Princeton is a secular institution that has support groups for religious persons through the Office of Religious Life. People are entitled to a certain amount of accomodation for their religious beliefs, but not when it infringes on others in an excessive way (as with the recent decision at another ivy to ban men from the gym for a number of hours so that Muslim women could work out without violating their relgious code). As an atheist, I don't think I should have to walk around campus hearing this noise, (I call it noise because it has no meaning or purpose for me, personally). I mean, religious students ask yourselves, how would you feel if every Wednesday I declared over loudspeaker "your god does not exist, you are not going to heaven nor to hell, no one is listening to your prayers." I'd bet you'd feel as if this was a noisey and unnecessary disturbance.
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
http://www.bloodline-themovie.com/ this is an intense documentary on the mysteries of Jesus’ Bloodline. Those of you who are into ‘The Da Vinci code’ or ‘holy blood holy grail’ will be amazed by this real-life adventure with actual holy relics found.. I was amazed.
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
Talk about ignorance, "the inconvenient hadith." so you are now implying something sinister about ALL followers of Islam. Part of the reason why Americans are so apprehensive about Muslims is because we don't know enough about the religion as it is practiced by Muslims themselves and instead react to stereotypes often perpetuated by popular media. It seems to me that the intention of calling the athan at Harvard was not to popularize Islam or in any way force it upon students, just as I'm sure the ringing of church bells do not symbolize the call for students to embrace Christianity. Instead, I think the decision to give the athan represents some level of comfort that Muslim Harvardians have in their community, but the response to such a thought has been clearly shattering and reflects such a resistance to Muslims' integration into the American community; so much for all that effort encouraging diversity and acceptance!
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
P'05, Islam calls for followers to "kill the infidels wherever they may be." There are countless gems like that all over Islam, and I can see why some non-Muslim students may be apprehensive to have the rallying call of this religion broadcast. Salaam!
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
#3, as long as it wasn't a university administrator, there is nothing wrong with it. If people didn't like groups doing things individually, then PAWS wouldn't be allowed to demonstrate/get in the way. The priest acts independently of Shirely Tilghman, while broadcasting the adhan over the PA would require university/facilities approval.
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
P'08: it seems as if you will graduate Princeton without a proper understanding of a major world religion. Shame. FYI, Islam is not exclusive like Christianity and therefore your "chapel blare" is not analogous to the Islamic call to prayer. Muhammad being the Messenger of God according to the Islamic tradition does not mean "only those who accept Muhammad as Messenger of God will enter heaven". I hope you are using this last term of college education in a constructive manner. La Aljamyah: you obviously were not around campus this Easter, when a substantial group of people led by a priest carrying a cross were walking around campus.
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
It's all well and good for the university to be tolerant of people trying to voice religious opinion. It's a different story when that voice is from the university itself and bears its sanction, as would happen if the adhan were broadcast. It would be alienating, to say the least.
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!
The church bells example is clearly disanalogous. Image if instead of bells, a speaker in the chapel blared for all to hear, "There is no god but Jesus Christ. Only those who accept Jesus as Saviour will enter heaven." Wouldn't that piss you off?
Thumbs Up! Thumbs Down!