Our lead is still strong
Regarding ‘Fiddling while our lead burns,' (Wednesday, Feb. 27, 2008):
While I am pleased to see a number of our peers announcing improvements to their aid programs that will benefit many students in future years, ...(back to the article)
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should our class prez really be taking sides in an incredibly divisive and controversial debate? doesn't this undermine his ability to represent all of us?
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"Indeed, as recent events have shown, conservative students have no one to fear but themselves." This is incredibly offensive and insensitive. To suggest that all or many conservative students are deranged in the manner that Nava was is despicable, and reflects much more poorly on your own grasp of the discourse in question than that of conservative students. Shame on you for making that inference.
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"Since we have one side institutionalized, we should in all fairness have the other." Are you even thinking about the implications of what you are saying about fellow students? There are plenty of gay students on this campus who choose (or frustratedly do not choose) to abstain from sex due to an sexual environment they do not morally sympathize with. Many gay men on this campus are closeted, and the scene is very much sexually charged but lacks emotional fulfillment or commitment. So there are many members of that minority that will never have sex during their undergraduate years due to the "street"-culture and intolerance (as displayed in your ridiculous assumptions about what it means to be gay). Homosexual does not mean sexually active, it is not a choice but a part of who you are, and considering you seem to think gay and straight are two sides of a spectrum is just showing that some of our community hasn't quite caught on to the issues of the 21st century. It is nice to see that there are queer-friendly straight members of what I would like to think is a progressive community like Hal that really understand the human and moral implications of this outrageous proposal.
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Hal, you should stick to IvyGate, where posts like this are more at home. I can't see much of an argument here. You're addressing side issues and making subtle barbs at conservative students. You're really preaching to the choir.
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Awesome response Hal.
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Issues of sexuality are challenging, regardless of whether a person is in a marginalized group or not. The university has a center that is purportedly devoted to helping students deal with issues of sexuality. The mere fact that some students are feeling neglected in this regard is evidence that the center is not effectively serving the entire community. Perhaps the center should make sure it is prepared to assist all students, regardless of sexual preference or frequency of sexual activity, in coming to grips with their sexuality and living a lifestyle that they have chosen. And this should be publicized, so that all students who are struggling with issues of sexuality (regardless of the specifics of those issues) know where they can go for support.
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Um. I'm not Tom. Otherwise I'd post under his name. I've said Tom is wrong. I merely responded to your #1 response which said Hal's argument was eloquent.
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That was only my complimentary introduction to my main body of claims. Your choice to respond to that as opposed to my revelation of your broad-based misunderstanding of the aims of LGBT suggests that perhaps you do not have a defense...If you do, I think it's important to hear considering your prominent position in the student community. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say that LGBT students and virgins together make up at least 40% of the students body, if not much more. To so misrepresent both of these groups is not a small error.
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Student -- please do compare my comments with Hal's. While the two parentheticals (of five (5) total words) were apparently too much for you, just try replacing them with commas. Since his writing is eloquent, I'd still love to learn what "models of human flourishing" are, if not overwritten tripe. This sentence is equally confusing... "[t]he historical and contemporary oppression faced by homosexuals is of an intensity, ubiquity and even violence which I doubt very much Tom Haine has experienced, however unpopular his sexual traditionalism has made him, our class president, at the liberal police-state of Princeton University." Hal makes some valid points, but there's no ground to call the bulk of it "eloquent". The mere use of the word "moreover" forestalls that conclusion.
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I still disagree with Tom's inaccurate description of what it means to be Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Transgender. The idea that acting on a largely genetic impulse to love someone of the same sex is “ideology” is akin to saying my instinct as a woman to have children is ideological. It is nothing of the sort. My largest criticism with Tom’s column is his statement that a chastity center would serve as a "counterweight to the permissive sexual norms institutionalized – as at the LGBT Center." Here, he directly confounds the ideas of being gay with being sexually active. The LGBT Center serves those students who are gay as a sexual orientation; it has nothing to do with a preference whether or not to have sex. The distinction is not served by the reductionist metaphor of "act and actors." Tom, I wonder if you debated this issue with any of the gay members of our senior class before publishing it in the Prince and online. I was certainly disappointed that my class president could confuse the important issue of what sexual orientation really means. It's fine if you want to have a chaste center, but please don't lobby for one by misrepresenting the LGBT Center that serves a much broader purpose than you recognized in your column.
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How can you equate GAY with UNCHASTE. If the University had on-campus Sex Groups, I would understand the need for a chastity center. However, LGBT groups explore a LOVE PREFERENCE. There are gay virgins.... It's funny to see students like Tom reveal their prejudice of gay students as somehow sexually deviant in a public article in the school newspaper....embarassing for them....
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1) Compare Hal's eloquent argument with the comment from "Alum"'s poorly written nonsense filled with more parenthesis than actual thought. Great response, Hal. 2) Tom, your use of the term "traditional students" shows that perhaps you should attend a school that is not Princeton where that sort of mindset is still prevalent (like Ole Miss). This is not your father's princeton, buddy. There are Blacks and Jews and Gays and Hispanics and every other sort of minority under the sun; why should chaste Christians get away with calling themselves the "traditional students"? Homosexuality is the oldest "tradition" there is. 3) Let's be real. What would go down at the Chastity Center? Virgin "support"? There was a poll last year that revealed that a HUGE percentage of students are virgins, NOT only those who choose to publicly join groups like the Anscombe Society or Christian Groups; just because you are the only ones who feel the need to preach your chastity, many students make the same choices in a secular way.
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Hal, you need to explain why Tom's ideas are "poorly thought-out." You can't just say that and expect readers to take you at your word. And regarding commitments about how homosexuality originates, does this really matter to the debate? Moreimportantly, Hal, you seem to deny free will in the matter of homosexuality. If what you say is true about the origination of same-sex attraction, does that mean that someone who is heterosexual but decides to begin living as a homosexual is somehow second-class?
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"[T]wo sides of the same coin" doesn't mean anything. It's a useless cliche. It doesn't magically make your point articulate or reasonable. However, "two sides of the same coin" is to be much preferred over "[a]pparently, models of human flourishing of which Haine personally disapproves are merely 'ideological.'" What in the sam h__l does that mean? Honestly. Both of you would be better off directly stating your thoughts. While people (including me) may not prefer Tom's ideological position regarding homosexual marriage and "tradional" (whatever that is) sexual mores, it's not a new or ridiculous sentiment. The chastity center argument on the other hand... well, it is a cheap shot, an ideological "gotcha". Ideological point scored for Tom. Now can y'all move past the issue since it isn't sincerely wanted, or objectively needed?
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Great response, Hal. Tom, you're still making allegations of discrimination against chaste students. I'm really confused by this notion. I mean, do you have any actual evidence that chaste students are being persecuted here? Come on, Tom, you're the class president for Pete's sake! I think you've made an enormous error in calling for a chastity center as a counterbalance for the LGBT center. The LGBT center exists for reasons that just don't apply to chaste students. Those reasons include historical *and continuing* hatred and ignorance of LGBT persons, civil rights violations, social ostracism, and outright violence including maiming, torturing and murder. I think you really need to rethink your use of the victim card.
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A well-reasoned and classy retort by Mr. Haine to the eloquent yet snide and ad hominem letter from Mr. Parker. If only every side of these important campus debates dealt in argument rather than vitriol, perhaps we'd get somewhere. Alas...
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I agree, the weather is generally fine here at Princeton. A few storm clouds here and there that could easily be cleared away, but overall quite nice. Just a quick thought for general consideration - I never conflate LGBT persons with the ideological position taken by the LGBT center. That was your confused yet eloquent interpretation. Being a certain way is not an ideology; but acting a certain way, in response to your understanding of the world and your rational deliberations as to proper conduct, is certainly ideological (which is not a pejorative term, but merely descriptive). Hence the clear distinction between acts and actors – we should discuss and debate the former, since they are subject to rational deliberation, but as you know the latter is always and forever to be respected as of infinite and immutably dignity. Also, you are right, traditional students haven’t faced the same type of historical abuse and violence that LGBT students have. But I would repeat, this is not an argument against a center for chastity, since the two centers are fundamentally the same thing, only approaching the delicate issue of sexuality from mutually challenging ideological positions. They are two sides of the same coin. They both would provide support and resources in an area judged worthy of institutionalization by the university - namely, that of sexuality. Since we have one side institutionalized, we should in all fairness have the other. I trust that Princetonians are able to recognize an unjust situation when they see it - discrimination need not be physical to be unacceptable at this university.
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